Channelling their inner Obama, the Journal Times has declared that the time to talk is over and that we must have action, now, to "fix the state's broken method of paying for public schools."
OK, does anyone really think the public education/media complex just wants the education funding method tweaked? Sorry folks, thats just code for we want to raise taxes even more, and then some. Besides, the "method" for funding schools is just fine. An abundant quantity of cash has been delivered year after year, raising at rates far in excess of the rate of inflation. But enough is never enough.
Rather than focus on the method for paying for schools, which isn't broken, the focus should be on the method of educational delivery, which most definitely is broken. Is a bloated, union dominated government bureaucracy the best method for education delivery? Hell no!
But the Journal Times doesn't want to talk about our broken education delivery system. Forget about action.
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About Me
- Denis Navratil
- I love Racine Wisconsin. But I am not naive about the challenges we face. I have chosen the name Free Racine for a reason. For Racine to realize its great potential, we must free ourselves from our own failed policies, from high taxes, failing schools, and self serving politicians.
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59 comments:
so you'd rather pay for missiles and jails, rather then pay to educate our next leaders, innovators and knowledge workers so america can compete with the rest of the world?
If some impoverished kid from India needed books for school or an entire school built, we'd send every available resource to these impoverished Indian kids.
If some kid from our own country needed books or a new school built, you would cry & whine about why we dont need to pay for it. it's embarrassing and pathetic how republicans put up road blocks to our own future.
why is this?
It is despicable how democrats whine about children as an excuse for increased taxes to pay salaries and the children never seem to benefit. As for the "leaders, innovators and knowledge workers" - there are lots of them here already, many of them unemployed. But we are increasing taxes so that they can go learn how to be a nurses aid for $17,500 a year.
children are supposed to be unemployed, their job is school. Look at the honor rolls of any school and tell those kids that they are not benefitting from education.
Let me ask you this, is a job as a nurses aid with a salary of $17,500 better or worse than an inmate with zero salary that is costing 4 times as much annually to taxpayers.
You made a couple of twists there but I'll bite.
The honor students certainly are benefiting from education - because they want to. Some of them survuive and thrive in lousy school districts, again, because they want to. All the money in the world would not give them better teachers unless the union took a bog buyout.
So spending more on schools would decrease the numbers of inmates? This is another common argument from the "it's for the children" crowd, but does it hold water? Again, how does paying higher salaries to mostly admins and thei consultant buddies educate better and reduce the number of people in prisons?
For the last referendum in RUSD we were shown pictures of broken windows, peeling paint, out of date boilers, etc. Two questions: how many teachers' contracts have been negotiated since these problems were "discovered" (the boiler I'm thinking of was installed in 1910)? Have any of the building issues been resolved "for the children" since they were handed millions of dollars from the last referendum? We are being forced to keep throwing more money at all of this but NOTHING changes for the children.
so you are suggesting that these honor roll students don't need support or good teachers, or decent buildings, etc.. because they're already on the honor roll? So you think they got there by themselves, no teachers involved whatsoever? The honor roll students success is not achieved by themselves, teachers do play a role in that success. You and your anti-public education buddies will never admit it, but there are great teachers in rusd motivating and inspiring their students.
As far as teachers salaries, is it not reasonable for any employee of any company, private or public be fairly compensated for obtaining the necessary levels of education and certifications needed to do their job and help that organization? All things being equal, you would expect to receive similar compensation as those doing similar work with similar credentials, would you not?
It is apparent you get your information about rusd from the JT or your other republican block heads, which is of course a tainted view. I'd encourage you to get involved with rusd in the classrooms, see for yourself the work the good teachers put in, the effort and subsequent great results that people seldom hear about.
OK - I looked at enough of your last post to give up and recognize that you are a brainless ignoramus. Have fun tilting at windmills. Bye bye !
..thats what i thought you'd do, run to the hills.
Our educational system isn't broken, it's under attack through the use of a lie: Failing Schools. Our schools are not failing in fact schools don't fail, children fail and when you look at where there are great concentrations of failing children in Wisconsin they always occur in urban areas hwhere there is a concentration of poverty, lack of family supporting jobs, lack of opportunity and hope and all the social ills that go with these conditions.
But Cons like you would rather attack the teachers, their union and public education in general than actually try to address the real problem. Assuming that you're genuinely concerned, I can tell you that you will NEVER address this problem if your solutions are wrapped around the propagandist lie of "failing schools".
Our children deserve to be educated in good times and in bad and if we don't have the money to do that now because Bush stuck his dick into Iraq just like Bin Laden wanted him too then the terrorist have won and it will only have taken one generation, a short wait for people who take the long view of history rather than the time frame of the next quarterly financial statement.
BTW, that last anonymous comment was mine and not that of the previous rational anonymous commentor.
Sean, your comment, that "in fact schools don't fail, children fail" is easily one of your silliest points ever.
Sean, why are there so many social problems in urban areas? I thought urban areas voted Democratic. Why aren't the Democratic solutions working?
Sean, is there any other country in the history of the world that has spent as much on education as the US currently does? Hint: NO.
Denis if it's such a silly point then you'll have no problem demostrating that beyond simply saying so.
Why are there so many social problems in uban areas like Racine that have lost the vast majority of their family supporting manufacturing jobs in the last 30 years. Gee I wonder.
Actually we spend less on education that just about all the other developed countries. But that misses the point. What's happening in the schools is a symptom of the struggles in the community ofwhich the schools are a part. To blame the schools is to misdiagnose the problem which leaves no hope of a real solution. It's like fixing your dashboard when you've blown your engine.
Schools can't fail Sean? Can I then get you to admit on the record that none of Milwaukee's voucher schools have failed. If schools can't fail Sean, why not reduce their funding by 95%?
Nice dodge Sean. Racine, like most urban cities, has been run by Democrats pursuing Democratic policies. Could it be that businesses have fled because of those policies? In any case, why aren't the Democratic policies in urban areas resulting in people and jobs flowing to those cities? Why are they going to Texas Sean?
No, not missing the point at all Sean. In fact, I am responding to your point, that we don't have money for schools. We do, only it isn't working. And you want to blame the victims, the poor inner city children, for the Democratic policies that left them poor, with single mothers, no jobs and a crappy education system.
sean: "Actually we spend less on education that just about all the other developed countries."
Really? All the data I've been able to call up shows that we spend more than just about all the other developed countries. Can you cite a source on this seemingly false claim or is this just another article of faith that you hold?
Denis, we agree! You've identified democratic policies as the external reason for the struggles in education in Racine and thereby realized that it's not the schools themselves or the teachers.
While I'm willing to entertain the notion that local democratic policies are to blame, I'm sure they are to some extent I would say it's much more complicated than that and would certainly put fault on conservative policies of the last 30 years and particular con trade policies that have wiped out the family supporting jobs.
Oh, just so you're aware, your simplistic logic of blaming Democratic policies in Racine for the plight of education there can easily be flipped and applied to the sad education systems in the red states of the south to blame republicans. But I'm not sure the logic makes anymore sense that way either.
But now at least we both have come to recognize that the term failing schools is lie meant to distract, deceive and scapegoat. Failing to realize that leaves no hope real solutions.
I'm not arguing that we don't spend enough money on our schools in normal times. And in light of the real problem, of which the schools are merely a symptom, it doesn't make sense to just throw more money at the schools, they're not the problem. However, it also doesn't make sense to lay off lots of teachers and close schools, increasing the class sizes like is happening across the country. That will only rip off our children and make matters worse.
But it's refresshing to know that we've identified some of the real problems and we're interested in discussing and coming up with real solutions, rather than misdirected griping and scapegoating.
I think you're right Nemo, my mistake. Now if you'll please, respond yo my requests on Kay's Blue Racine to provide contrarian climate change scientists, doing actual research with credible institutions and not "roughly translated Czech blogs" spouting conspiracies and retired electrical engineers who are members of the British Royal Society.
Sean, I don't make a distinction between Democrats and the teachers union. Thus any ruinous Democratic policies that have been foisted upon urban areas in all likelyhood had the full support of public school teachers.
Another point, even though there are lousy schools in red states, it is because the teachers unions have enough power to prevent reforms. Repubs in general have been way too cowardly in taking on the teachers unions.
So it's all the fault of the teachers unions. That's the kind of simplistic analysis and scapegoating I've come expect from you Denis. It sems there are some gapping holes in your thought process though.
My mother and her generation got a great education at Racine Unified and teachers were unionized. The teachers were unionized and I and my peers got good educations at Racine Unified. The difference between good and great in my case is my fault alone, but it's still good enough to mop the floor with the arguments that spring out of your values and beliefs system. By the way, I do relish this inevitable point in our exchanges where you start to flail around in a desperate attempt to stay in the game.
What has changed in the last 30 years that has resulted in the struggling of so many students in Racine? Out here in Burlington the teachers are unionized and I have few complaints about the schools and most students are doing well. Nearby in Elkhorn they have one of the top ranked school districts in the country, in fact Wisconsin public schools, all which have unionized teachers are at the top nationally.
How do you explain that? What specific reforms do you claim the unions are preventing and how would they improve the environment surrounding the schools in Racine?
The only areas in Wisconsin where there are high concentrations of students struggling are in areas of concrentrated poverty. I know that you are emotionally invested in the notion of "failing public schools" because you consider anything "public" to be the enemy along with anything "union" and that line of thinking allows you to continue your self-interested scapegoating. But I got a good enough education at RUSD to where I can engage in critical thinking and understand that "Failing Public Schools" is a GOPropagandistic lie and to understand the political motivation behind the propagation of this lie.
You can't solve a problem if you're too ignorant or too manipulated to even see what the proble really is. And if you really care about the students you would be well served to engage in a little intellectual honesty to on their behalf.
Sean, I am hardly swayed of the virtues of Unified when you hold yourself as an example of success. While I will concede that you are sometimes clever and articulate, I have yet to see evidence of your supposed critical thinking. You are a reliably liberal progressive hack with unwarranted self esteem. So while you are exactly what Unified wants to crank out, you are in my view an example of what is wrong with Unified.
Regarding the "success" of Burlington's or Elkhorn's public school systems, I wonder how they compare to the competition in other country's. Probably not so well. It is true that the public schools in urban areas are in a more advanced state of decline that in your neck of the woods. I suspect that this is because the progressive agenda is more thoroughly entrenched in urban areas. Thus the social ills caused by your preferred policies has harmed urban areas - schools, families, jobs etc... - to a greater degree than in Burlington, Elkhorn etc...
Lastly, unions need some time to destroy successful institutions. And of course there are individual teachers that are excellent and manage to teach well despite the obstacles.
Re your last paragraph: right back atcha.
Denis, what are the reforms that you mentioned that the teachers union is supposedly blocking and how would they help the kids be better students?
Sean, the problems with public schooling are systemic. Public schools meet the very definition of a socialist institution. That would be fine if socialist institutions worked, but they don't. They misalign incentives. Teachers are compensated not because they have convinced parents to entrust them with their children. Rather, their compensation is dependent on a political process. As such, political activity is rewarded while educational excellence is not. I can't think of a more damaging way to set up an education system. The proper way to reform this system is to properly align incentives. This would entail empowering parents to choose the school that they think is best for their child. This could be accomplished via school vouchers or tax credits. Unionized teachers of course fear and opposes this reform because they would no longer be guaranteed paying customers. As a business owner, it would be nice if the government provided me with paying customers, but it would ultimately be destructive for my customers. Anyway, schools would have to convince parents to send their children to their school, instead of convincing politicians to keep the cash flowing. Schools would have to compete, specialize, innovate etc... to get students, while political activity would not be rewarded. Children would be the primary beneficiaries of such a change. Schools are their for the children, or at least ought to be.
Faith-based ideological claptrap. Vouchers is another classic example of a Con bate and switch. Destroy public institutions with the promise of funding that will never follow or keep pace with costs for those who need it, just like Bushyboy's mess No Child Left Untested.
How is it that public, unionized (your term socialized) schools worked well for generations and still do in most places making America the most educated country in the world with the most productive work force?
Now that we have communities like Racine that are struggling with their jobs going overseas leaving a vacuum of poverty you want to blame the schools that are not the cause, but the symptom. Blinded by the right. Pity
Let's see who has a faith based thought process. I believe that a school system that is guaranteed customers by the government, with teachers protected by tenure rather than talent, will underperform when competing with schools that must work to attract students, with teachers that could lose their jobs if they aren't good at teaching. Now if there is something about human nature such that the former will outperform the latter, I don't know what it is, but your entire ideology rests on this assumption. Please explain Sean, how it is that a teacher protected from competition will become better at her (or his) profession compared to one who must prove her worth year after year. Faith is the only explanation. Why not just admit it?
Your whole faith in the "Failing Schools" lie simply does not stand up to even the the most cursory review of facts.
Fact: Most public school systems in Wisconsin and the rest of the country are do just fine and have done so historically.
Fact: Just about all the public school systems in America are, and have been for generations unionized.
Fact: The only places where the schools are falsely labeled as failing is where there is concentrated and pervasive poverty and all the ills go along with it. This is too strong a correlation to simply be coincidence.
Fact: Students do assigned work and take tests. Have you EVER seen a school or a district take a test or do homework? No.
Fact: Students are assigned grades for their efforts and performance that are either passing or failing, not schools.
Fact: Failing schools is a lie (an easy to say and remember Rovian gandbyte) designed intentionally to mislead people about the problem and allow scapegoating for cynical political purposes thqat have nothing to do with the welfare of innercity children.
Fact: Denis will hold on to this lie with all his might dispite the clear evidence provided above because he believes in the Reaganite deceptions that government is the enemy, public is a dirty word, capital should be able to organize and bargain collectively but not workers and taxation is theft and he dare not confront the fallacies that underpin his value system.
OK, I actually read one of those.
Fact: The sky is purple with pink clouds today.
This is clear evidence (above) that the sky is purple with pink clouds today. You can hang onto your sky-hating Rovian demonology al you want but . . .
Sean, how many legs does a dog have if you count its tail as a leg? If you answered five, you would be wrong. Calling a tail a leg does not make it so, just as calling an opinion a fact does not make it so.
Can't help but notice the complete dodge of my last post.
I have demonstrated conclusively the FACT that the term "Failing Schools" is a lie. That ws my goal.
As for your last post let me ask you, will the privatized schools you propose have to accept all students at all levels of ability or disability like our public schools do, or will they get to cherry pick?
How do you propose to evaluate teachers skills and decide which teachers are good and which are not as good in a way that is both accurate and fair?
You do know that teachers can lose thier job now if they're not good at it right? Tenure doesn't mean you can't be fired, it means that you can't be fired without cause and without due process, right?
You do know that 50% of new teachers quit the profession within the first 5 years, right? I'd say that weeds out most of the bad and/or undedicated teachers right there. Do know of any other profession that's so tough to have that kind of attrition rate? The idea that there are all these bad teachers out there is just another Con lie sown for cynical political purposes ans without regard for the students.
To provide for the bottom line profit of these education privateers either cost will go up, or teacher salaries will go down. That'll make the training andretention of good teachers even harder and the attrition rate will only go up. How will that help the children? Will the share holders care about education or dividends?
Of all the teachers I've had and my kids have had I can think of only two bad ones. One that two my kids had which prompted us to change their schedule to avoid that particular subject and one long term substitute that I had for one partial semester of 9th grade english due to illness of the regular teacher who was excellent, that's all, TWO!
We have a good system now. It's not broken and it's worked for generations. It would be total folly to dismantle it and engage in an experiment based soley on a failed utopian ideology of free-market fundamentalism. And to do so ONLY for crass partisan political gain, because selfish-interested people like you don't want to shoulder their fare share of living in a democracy and based totally on the blatant lie GOPpropaganda LIE of "failing schools" would be a disaster for our children and the future of the country. Game, set, match.
I have demonstrated conclusively the FACT that the term "Failing Schools" is a lie. That ws my goal.
As for your last post let me ask you, will the privatized schools you propose have to accept all students at all levels of ability or disability like our public schools do, or will they get to cherry pick?
How do you propose to evaluate teachers skills and decide which teachers are good and which are not as good in a way that is both accurate and fair?
You do know that teachers can lose thier job now if they're not good at it right? Tenure doesn't mean you can't be fired, it means that you can't be fired without cause and without due process, right?
You do know that 50% of new teachers quit the profession within the first 5 years, right? I'd say that weeds out most of the bad and/or undedicated teachers right there. Do know of any other profession that's so tough to have that kind of attrition rate? The idea that there are all these bad teachers out there is just another Con lie sown for cynical political purposes ans without regard for the students.
To provide for the bottom line profit of these education privateers either cost will go up, or teacher salaries will go down. That'll make the training andretention of good teachers even harder and the attrition rate will only go up. How will that help the children? Will the share holders care about education or dividends?
Of all the teachers I've had and my kids have had I can think of only two bad ones. One that two my kids had which prompted us to change their schedule to avoid that particular subject and one long term substitute that I had for one partial semester of 9th grade english due to illness of the regular teacher who was excellent, that's all, TWO!
We have a good system now. It's not broken and it's worked for generations. It would be total folly to dismantle it and engage in an experiment based soley on a failed utopian ideology of free-market fundamentalism. And to do so ONLY for crass partisan political gain, because selfish-interested people like you don't want to shoulder their fare share of living in a democracy and based totally on the blatant lie GOPpropaganda LIE of "failing schools" would be a disaster for our children and the future of the country.
Sean, schools should be able to pick students and families should pick schools. Its a concept called freedom. Now it is of course likely that some students will not be accepted by some schools for any number of reasons, including disabilities, behavior problems etc... Do we just forget about these difficult cases? No, we recognize the challenge and we attach a higher voucher amount to such students which reflects the higher costs of educating them. This is not an insurmountable problem by any means.
Re evaluation of teachers, this should be done by administration, as is done now. The only difference is that administrators who keep lousy teachers will start to lose students and ultimately there own job. If you can't cut it as an administrator or a teacher, you really are harming the students. It's for the children isn't it Sean?
Yes, teachers in the public schools can be fired and it could snow in Saudi Arabia.
You say fifty percent of teachers quit after 5 years and you cite this as evidence of weeding out bad teachers. This is your belief system at work again. What makes you so sure it isn't good teachers who are quitting?
Sean, you have a complete misunderstanding of the private sector. Actually costs would go down and quality would go up as the system roots out waste. And free markets are not a failed utopian ideology. Rather, it is the only system that has reliably resulted in wealth creation and excellence. What it doesn't provide is equality of results which is why, I suspect, someone of meager ability would be so hostile to the concept.
Bottom Line: You Cons want to dismantle a system that already delivers a quality service in order to advance a selfish and politically cynical hidden agenda. And to push your scheme you're using the big lie method of deception and manipulation. People whowith such motives and methods are simply not trustworthy or responsible.
Failing Schools - LIE
Legions of Bad Teachers - LIE
Please place the crumpled little ball of paper you've put forth as an "argument" in the proper receptacle.
This is the way the world works Denis - between you and I we have two college degrees and two advanced degrees (degrees NOT from Kaplan or Phoenix or the University of Upper Moldovia School of Program Mamangement), we want education to be better, but we are deemed "education- and child-haters" and get lectured by angry, ignorant people.
Have a great week. Make lots of money so lots can be skimmed off while ignorant folk hate you -
Sean, you get an "A" for effort. You tried really hard. You have opinions that you are passionate about. I am so proud of you. You stood up to those conservative bullies. Remember what we have always taught you Sean, that all strongly held opinions are valuable whether they withstand scrutiny or not. If you feel passionate and engaged as a caring citizen of the world, then I have done my job as Unified school teacher. I am sure you are oozing self esteem right now, as you should be.
Sincerely, a super dupery proud Unified teacher!
Thank you SDPUT! By the way, I'm neither ignorant nor uneducated and I'm certainly NOT unsuccessful as has been basely suggested by the Cons, who in their desparate flailing apparently like to make pronouncements of dubious relevance regarding things they know nothing about rather than address the merits of the argument they are confronted with.
sean, two things:
1) To state that "failing schools - lies" seems to be based on how you define failed. For what it's worth I believe that the mission of the schools can be measured in both terms of quality and quantity of educated Americans. This would correspond to graduation rates and proficiency tests. At MPS, 38% of students completed high school in 2007-'08: Fail. Only 39% of 10th graders are listed as proficient or advanced in reading: Epic Fail. Only 28.7% of 10th graders are listed as proficient or advanced in math : Worst Fail of All. Now you can use your special brand of homeopathic reasoning or some sort of jeti mind trick to try to show otherwise but the strong minded know, and can quantitatively show, the truth. Most schools in southeastern Wisconsin are failing in their mission to educate the student body.
2) I'd love to further bury your faith in Mann-made global warming but this is not the thread and I don't want to risk a fourth (or is it fifth?) banning at Kay's by addressing it in the currently active posts (none are about confusing science and religion)
Denis, at the risk of being off topic, I have to say that I really enjoyed your comments at Kay's. I'd add verbage there but I was afraid of being drawn into the thread and you were doing such a good (and funny) job on your own. Great work!
Dear Nemo-Come-Lately, your tardy attempt to rescue the GOPster view from absolute destruction in this string is a day late and dollar short. Like in the case of global warming you've once again misidentified the source of the problem based on your political ideological predelictions.
Also like in the case of global warming demial simply re-wording and re-publishing already discredited arguments doesn't advance your casue, it only demostrates its weakness.
Finally including easily identified and refutable lies in you arguments, such as "Most schools in southeastern Wisconsin are failing in their mission to educate the student body." clearly illustrates your extreme ideological blind acceptance of the twin lies of "failing schools" and "lots of bad teachers".
If you must lie to advance your thoughts, your thoughts are not advanced.
Only two districts in Wisconsin have been identified for improvement by DPI, Milwaukee and Beloit (shh Beloit is not in SE Wisconsin). Milwaukee and Beloit of course share the malady of concentrated poverty and extremely depressed economies which are the real cause of the problems which are symptomatic in the schools.
The fact is that the vast majority of public schools and districts in the 8 county regoion of SE WI are doing very well dispite your failed perception to the contrary.
Besides, you said yourself making my case (Emphasis added); At MPS, 38% of STUDENTS completed high school in 2007-'08. Only 39% of 10TH GRADERS (STUDENTS) are listed as proficient or advanced in reading. Only 28.7% of 10TH GRADERS (STUDENTS) are listed as proficient or advanced in math.
The students in Milwaukee are struggling because their families are struggling and their families are struggling because their neighborhoods and entire communities are struggling.
You see what Cons fail to recognize is that with human beings it really is largely about the health of the community we live in. People who can rise above that are truly very exceptional.
Why do you folks even respond to this ass clown who begins each rant by calling you names? Seriously, is there ANYONE out there who is more than twelve years old who would like to debate here? I would welcome a comment that is worth reading past the first few words.
sean babbled, "The fact is that the vast majority of public schools and districts in the 8 county regoion [sic] of SE WI are doing very well dispite [sic] your failed perception to the contrary."
Since almost half the students in this region are in MPS, a district that you admit needs improvement (it fails to teach), this would mean that you are claiming that almost all the schools outside Milwaukee are doing great (actually to be close to a "vast majority" about 300% of them would have to be great. Not sure if that shows a weakness in your math skills or your reasoning ability. I am sure that admitting you are a product of the public schools is not helping your argument.) If that's the case, clearly they don't need more money!
Your argument that poor kids can not be educated has me a bit perplexed. I must have missed the study that linked net worth to dumb. You must forward it to the voucher schools that continue to disprove it so that they too can have that excuse if they fail.
You seem to be trying to push this thread into a iconoclast (me) verses the faithful (you) on Mann- made global warming. I saw this and naturally thought of you. Heh.
Nemo - I LOVE the "Mann-made global warming" thing. My undergrad degree is from Penn State and I told them that I will not contribute to their Fund until Mann is disciplined for his failure to comply with data requests and participation in the "erase the data program". On this topic, my first paper was published in 1986 and I guarantee that if my advisor was ever asked for hard copies of the data, they are on the shelf in his office or lab. This is one of the many conceopts that non-scientists get snowed about in these debates. That and the Scientific Method - which isn't employed when your focus is global warming research - aka "climate phenomonology".
Nemo - that was a great link! The author was knowledgable and at least the early posters are too. He likes the computer model method but admits they are all we have AND notes that there are limitations AND they could be incorrect. DON'T miss the eplanation of the "methane vs. CO2 threat" by an early poster!
Ah the word twisting of Nemo never ceases. You said "Most schools in southeastern Wisconsin are failing in their mission to educate the student body."
Since I pointed out that your statment was clearly wrong, now you've switched tacks to claim that: "Since almost half the students in this region are in MPS, a district that you admit needs improvement, this would mean that you are claiming that almost all the schools outside Milwaukee are doing great."
You've switched subjects from "schools" in SE WI in your first statement to "students" in SE WI in your second. Not consistent in your arguments dude, not apples to apples.
Nor did I "admit" that MPS "needs improvement", although surely it does. This was the label assigned by WI DPI, who like you and the Obama Administration are laboring under the deliberate twin misconceptions of failing school and bad teachers as the source of the problem because that is how it has been framed in the media to advance a subversive agenda.
And of course in keeping with your tradition of dishonesty in discourse you've stated that my argument is that poor kids can't learn. This is of course a LIE and something I never said, nor is it an accurate characterization of my argument.
Of course poor kids can learn. However, it is clear to ANY even marginally objective and intellectually honest observer that kids living in environments of concentrated poverty ARE struggling to learn because they have much more adversity to overcome before they can focus on their task of learning. That is why failing students are so concentrated in these areas. To deny this fact and blame the schools and teachers alone is to deny reality, which of course is a Con speciality.
Dude here's your "independent researcher": http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Roy_Spencer SHEESH!
sean, lets sum up your less-that-eloquent dismissal of the words of Dr. Roy Spencer:
Ad hominem abusive
An ad hominem is an argument which tries to disprove another argument by attacking the person who made it, rather than by focusing on the actual logical reasoning. The goal of an ad hominem argument is usually to take focus off of the actual argument by calling attention to a flaw of the person making it. This form of argument follows the form:
* Person A argues that P
* Person A is Q
* Q is some derogatory description not related to the argument at hand
* Therefore P is false
sean bellowed,"Nor did I "admit" that MPS "needs improvement", although surely it does."
Since you cited DPI in your homeopathic proof, I assumed that you would agree with your citation. Silly me.
sean spued, "You've switched subjects from "schools" in SE WI in your first statement to "students" in SE WI in your second. Not consistent in your arguments dude, not apples to apples.
I could not find the number of schools in south eastern Wisconsin cross tabbed with graduation rates and proficiency scores. The best I could dig up were student numbers which should roughly correspond to schools. In this case you are pointing out distinction without much of a difference. You stated that a "vast majority" of SE Wisconsin public schools are fine. Did you get that "fact" from the same source you got your "Actually we spend less on education that[sic] just about all the other developed countries." fact? That would explain much.
Anon 7:16, Thanks! I LOVE "climate phenomonology" and plan on stealing it.
Anon 7:30, Thanks! I really enjoyed the methane vs. CO2 threat part of the link too.
OH but it's a distinction with a huge difference Nemo and my source is WI DPI, the sate agency that tracks student performance.
The ONLY school district in SE WI identified as needing improvement by DPI because a substantial portion of the students are failing to achieve is MPS. Therefore logically, students in the the majority of the remaining SE WI schools are not failing to achieve. Therefore, the notion of failing public schools is demonstrably false.
By changing the subject to the number of students in SE WI and specifically in MPS you've put the focus where it should be, on the students, the geographic location where the majority of those students are failing and the conditions in that geographic location that the students must overcome in order to achieve.
To ignore those conditions as a prime factor in the results these students achieve, which I would note you have done completely thus far is to deliberately hide the truth to perpetuate a convenient lie. But then of course that is definitely your M.O.
sean mumbled, "The ONLY school district in SE WI identified as needing improvement by DPI because a substantial portion of the students are failing to achieve is MPS. Therefore logically, students in the the majority of the remaining SE WI schools are not failing to achieve. Therefore, the notion of failing public schools is demonstrably false."
If all the school districts had the same number of schools your reasoning would be sound. My guess is that MPS has quite a bit more than any one of them. Your logic is then demonstrably false.
Just a side, weren't we talking about Schools and not "School Districts"? What's the phrase you used? Apples to apples?
Still waiting for that source on the statement, "Actually we spend less on education that[sic] just about all the other developed countries."
Nemo, way to dodge the concentrated poverty issue again, which is the single most conspicuous common factor amongst students who are failing together in large numbers. I know, thou dost dare not speak it.
Districts/schools, the point is that the schools in SE WI that exhibit a subsantial concrentration of failing students are located in urban areas where they draw from areas with concentrated poverty. And the rest of the schools/districts have students who are performing dispite the Con perceived evils of being "public" and having unionized teachers revealing the lies of "failing public schools" and "bad teacher" as the cause of it all.
Oh look: http://www.cbs58.com/index.php?aid=12679 Of the 89 schools identified state wide, 71 receive funding for students in poverty. Pretty damn compelling evidence for my case and of course therefore more than worthy of your ignoringance.
You should read before you speak. I was guilty of speaking before I researched and I admitted my mistake and conceded the point about spending on schools vs other developed nations long ago in the string above, go back and look.
Then look at and ignore this: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Roy_Spencer#Opposition_to_evolution_and_embrace_of_.22intelligent_design.22
Thank you for your time if not your consideration.
Nemo, I've put up a CLimate change post on KBR http://blueracine.blogspot.com/
so you can provide your sources of climate change denial scientists do research at credible institutions and it'll be all legal 'n shtuff.
As for the big lies of failing schools and bad teachers, I think I've said enough and risk repeating myself again. If you're so certain that concentrated poverty is not the primary cause of concentrations of failing students then you should be easily able to construct a cogent, logical argument with some supporting evidence that poverty is not at the root of the problem.
I won't hold my breath, but I will be waiting with it baited!
Just thought that Anon-n-Nemo would be deeply interested in NOT seeing this climategate debunked info including the exhoneration of Mr. Mann, so I decided I should definitely post it: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2010/07/08/climate
A report from British parliament’s House of Commons Science and Technology Committee at the end of March and an independent investigation by Lord Ronald Oxburgh in April also cleared the climate scientists at the University of East Anglia of any misconduct on malpractice. Likewise, in two separate reports released in February and July, investigative panels at Pennsylvania State University absolved scientist MICHAEL MANN, who was also caught up in the "Climategate" affair, of wrongdoing.
Sean - you and the average person has no idea how you are being duped. But you don't care because this has morphed into us vs. them. Those "exonerations" are hilarious. The British panel was not impartial and Penn State likes the cash Mann brings in so they won't do anything.
Let me ask you this smart guy - can you read any of those research papers? Do you know anything about experimental design? Do you think science should be tied to a political agenda? Scientists are supposed to be critical and geez, save their raw data and give it to others when asked. My colleagues and I cannot for the life of us understand how global warming "scientists" get away with not doing this. They run to the media and claim that "the cause" is being damaged. What a crock.
Tell you what there Sean baby, let's run the FDA the way global warming research is done. I find a drug that a computer model predicts will bind to a particular protein that is overexpressed in cancer, which I predict will limit the growth of cancer cells and leave normal cells alone. Now I run computer models of toxicity and it turns out to be safe. Now I run computer models of how it works in a rat, one non-human primate, then man, and they all say the drug will work. The next day I put the drug into a pill and sell it to you. Are you going to take it?
. . . and by the way folks, my posts should not be considered responses to Seany-baby. I have way better ways to waste my time. I am providing a few points to consider to those who might be asking questions.
Another aspect of the global warming phenomenon that has troubled me for some time is the increasing numbers of universities that are creating various iterations of "departments of global warming". Why do they need their own departments? There are certainly cancer biology departments, usually clinical though, that branched off from biohemistry or cell biology departments years ago, then again, cancer can be demonstrated experimentally (note to Seany-baby - use Google and see if you can find the physiological criteria for the identity of a cancer cell).
Ultimately, no cancer biology department is going to produce a paper that says that there is no such thing as cancer, as cancer can be demonstrated experimentally. In the same vein, no sociologist from an African American Studies department is going to try to opublish a paper saying that there aare no black people - again, this can be shown to be false experimentally. Do you think a department of global warming is going to submit a paper that questions anthropomorphic global warming?
One more thing - the entire concept of greenhouse gas-induced planetary warming barely reaches the threshold of a hypothesis let alone a theory LET ALONE FACT. Do you realize that not a SINGLE experiment has ever been done that bears out the "prediction" of increasing CO2 causing planetary warming?
Here is an experiment. The southern hemishpere appears to be warming more slowly that the northern. This may based on flimsy data, but let's accept it for the moment (the global waming crowd seems to accept it). Our hypothesis will be that if CO2 levels are to blame for rising temps, then the atmospheric levels of CO2 in the southern hemisphere must be lower than the northern. Now let's measure the atmospheric CO2 levels over both hemispheres (ten measurements a joke, a hundred better, a thousand muuch bettern, ten thousand probably great).
I'll wait to see the results. Seany I hope you read this far because that at least kept your lips moving for a few minutes.
Well I hope Denis and maybe Nemo have read these because I'm sure none of the Blue F***ing Racine crowd will . . .
It would seem sean has stumbled upon a "winning" debate technique over at Blue Racine. He has his minions delete comments he does not like. After specifically calling me out on Mann-made global warming, I find myself subjected to this type of fatwa. I should have seen it coming. When cult members or grifters are confronted with truth and logic the reply is often "Shut up!". Think of this as a microcosm of the entire Mann-made global warming debate. The best argument that sean and other priests of the movement have (if not the only argument) is "Shut up!". There also might be something about "...and hand over your wallet!"
Nemo, I didn't ask Kay to block you on KBR (she did that for reasons of her own, perhaps your comment was inappropriate, it's her blog), quite the opposite, I looked forward to discrediting your ussual flimsy sources and crude arguments. I do however, have control over the Burlington Area Progressives blog and would be pleased to host the discourse there with you and anyone else such as the rambling Anon just above. I'll repost the Nemo's World piece there and you can have at it.
http://burlingtonareaprogressives.com/
To be honest sean, I'm not sure why I was banned for the third (forth?) time over at KBR. The last few times it was for quoting Thomas Mann or (my personal favorite) questioning liberals commitment to free speech (how do you spell irony : KBR (heh)). I'm glad that you are willing to try to defend your position and not just impose the banning fatwa on unbelievers. I guess that's what separates the clergy from the cultists. Well, that and in may cases gobs of government money.
I'll be sure to courteously commit heresy and apostasy over at the BURlington area Progressives blog in the near future.
Sorry for taking this thread in a not-related-to-the-post direction Denis. I look forward to your next verbal victory both here and over at KBR. Don't look for mine over at KBR, that voice has been silenced.
Those aren't the reasons your presence is not wanted on KBR know it. But then intellectually honest discourse isn't in keeping with your . . . idiom.
I now look forward to endless opportunities to document that on the BAP blog.
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