Wednesday, February 16, 2011

On Limiting Collective Bargaining, Part 2

A comment I made to Sean concerning the 50% of teachers who quit the profession within five years:

Sean, I don't doubt the truth of your non-anecdotal fact about teachers quitting within five years. But let us think it through a bit. Since it is likely you can't, I will do it for you. Compensation for teachers in the public sector is back loaded. The payoff really comes later after many years of service. Initially, salaries are modest. But after a while, teachers cash in with higher salaries, the better jobs, pensions and free health care for life in many cases. So young teachers have to make a choice within a few years. Will I accept a relatively raw deal now for a big payoff years down the road? Some will, while the truly talented will in many cases move on to other professions where their value is not defined by the passage of time. It would be interesting to see how many teachers leave after they are well down that road. While many have probably quit in effect, they muddle through, bide their time and await the payoff. Not exactly the best system to secure great teachers, but what would you expect from collective bargaining?


Sean Cranley said...

Based on your "logic" Denis, we should compensate Apprentices, Journeymen and Master Tradesmen the same.

Perhaps you should look up the 10,000 rule to find out what it takes to master ANY task that requires skill and experience.


EXCERPT: The National Center for Education Statistics surveyed current and former teachers to get more info on teacher retention. In 2005, 20% of brand new public school teachers left their teaching career behind for greener pastures- that’s more than double the natural attrition for teachers that same year at only 8%. Surprising, it isn’t a public school problem. Private schools lost 16% of their staff that same year. Of those who left the profession that year, only 30% is attributed to retiring teachers- 70% left for other reasons.

Some teachers that left the profession took jobs outside the field of education. Of those surveyed, 61% cited more professional working conditions in their new careers verses their time teaching. That same group said their workload was 65% more manageable outside of teaching and they were 65% more likely to better balance their personal and professional life after leaving their teaching career.

Teaching has gotten harder. Keeping up with the standards, the pressure of testing, crowded schedules and classes all present challenges to today’s teacher. We recently asked TheApple members why teachers quit. They citied low salary, feeling overloaded, fear, and lack of training to name a few.

Denis Navratil said...

"Based on your "logic" Denis, we should compensate Apprentices, Journeymen and Master Tradesmen the same."

You conclusion, if drawn from my comments, is a rather telling/damning example of your logic flaws Sean, not mine. If I posit that new teachers are getting a raw deal relative to older teachers, why would you conclude this to mean that I think they should be compensated equally? Couldn't new teachers be paid better then they are presently but still less than more experienced teachers? Do mindless quips like yours pass for logic among your progressive pals?

I am aware of the 10,000 rule/theory you speak of Sean. Still waiting on your mastery of reasoned discourse. Is it 20,000 for progressives? 50,000?

Not sure what you are trying to prove with the excerpt. People leave jobs. People change careers. This does not concern me. What does concern me is when people stay at jobs when they are no longer productive or effective, especially when children are the victims. Unfortunately, collective bargaining has created just those incentives at our public schools.

Nemo said...

"We recently asked TheApple members why teachers quit. They citied...feeling overloaded..."

It would be safe to assume that the survey was not taken during the months of June, July or August. Heh.

Sean Cranley said...

Oh I'm sorry Denis, I read your comment as saying that people shouldn't make more money as they gain more experience and knowledge in their job, hence my tongue in cheek response.

But since that isn't what you meant and you think entry level teachers should be better compensated, well then WE AGREE!