Tuesday, December 18, 2007

Shut Up, Fork It Over

Leave it to the Journal Times to capture the essence of the leftist/statist/socialist position on global warming. Read it for yourself if you like at: http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/2007/12/18/opinion/doc47673a8247192770324340.txt

The editorial is entitled Stop talking, start spending. The JT argues that "the whole country has missed some economic opportunity" as "US companies could right now be selling carbon dioxide-control equipment or advanced solar cells to the developing world instead of fighter jets-and could be making a lot more money." "Even if (global warming) skeptics are proven true," the nation will gain "new industries to employ the manufacturing workers whose livelihoods have fled overseas; and an economy that is overall more efficient and has more capital to invest because it's spending less to but energy."

A few thoughts. Is there something preventing US companies from "right now" selling environmental products overseas? Unless the product sales are discouraged by import tariffs or the lack of free trade generally, then no, nothing is preventing our "whole country" from this glorious "economic opportunity." More likely, the products in question are themselves economically inefficient, thus requiring a massive taxpayer subsidy to create this new "industry." The money required to "start spending" will be yours and it will be used to prop up an industry that would not exist without it. And the JT then argues that subsidizing an inefficient industry will somehow result in more capital and a more efficient economy. How so, I wonder? Capital, your capital, will be transferred from capital investments not requiring government subsidy to an industry that can't make it without government subsidy. This is called waste, not efficiency, and it will harm our economy. Someone, anyone at the JT should read an introductory economics textbook.

33 comments:

Real Debate said...

Yes Denis there is something preventing this.

They are waiting for us to give them the money to buy our environmentally friendly products.

Remember, the Bali conference asked for $796 per year for every person in this country.

Denis Navratil said...

Exactly Fred. Economic realities are preventing this and the answer is to stick it to the taxpayer, who should just shut up.

Caledonication said...

I noticed while watching news footage (of Algore) at the Bali conference, the audio included a lot of applause; yet, when the cameras panned the audience, a relatively small percentage of them were actually applauding. In fact, most of the front rows were not reacting to his pregnant pauses, whatsoever. I also found his analogy of global warming being similar to the Nazis "coming to get me" alarmist, if not outright fear mongering.

Regarding environmental products. Sure, I'll buy them after I pay for groceries, my kid's college, my three flat screen tvs, my cars, my boat, my house, my retirement, going out to eat, and everything (and anything) else I buy, first. All of those things will be much more effective at making me "feel good".

I'm looking forward to when this fad ends, then all the stock (pun intended) Algore has placed in his invention will leave him empty handed.

colt said...

If I may

There is a call for companies to manufacture equitment for Wind Power. I could make a case that tax credits for invbestment in this would help jump start the comanies, something that the Wisconsin Group True North is all ready doing.
This will bring needed good jobs to Northen Wisconsin.

Of couse the left does not like Wind Power becuse of the towers. Thank God they do not live in Denmark!

In Colt's perfect world we would see this area try to bring in manufacures to use some of the under used small machine shops and perhaps look at use of some of the Brown Fields around the shore area to put up Wind towers.
Guess talking about the Lake (over drinks) and building train few will ride is more crital to the local Goverment and Busness leaders.

Michael Gibson said...

I think that the idea of the article was that we stop spending taxpayer $ on Oil wars and take that money to invest in renewable energy technologies, which will, in the end benefit our economy. Of course starting up could be expensive, but wouldn't we be better off in the long run? Which leads me to something I've been thinking about lately. As far as global warming goes, there are two sides (sort of). There is a side that believes real science and real statistics is correct that we need to spend money on our environment, and there is a side that would rather look at phony charts and weak "scientific arguments". If we (being the environmental protection side) is wrong, we end up with a few misspent dollars. But if you (the skeptics) are wrong, we end p without a planet. What is more important to you?

Caledoniacation - You are the type of person that gives Americans a bad name. Why are you so proud to be such a glutton? Do you need all the things you listed, or do you just want them? You want them. But we NEED an Earth to live on.

Denis Navratil said...

Michael, having read the JT article, I know what the idea was. I made an argument suggesting that the idea contained flawed economic thinking. If you would like to challenge my argument, please do so. But simply reiterating the JT's argument is pointless.

And your prediction of the end of the planet is, well, interesting. I have yet to hear any scientist, credible or otherwise, advance that theory. Please expand on that argument, in your own words please.

And regarding Caledonication. If you could design a perfect world Michael, what method would you use to detrimine Caledonication's needs and wants?

Caledonication said...

"You are the type of person that gives Americans a bad name."

Let's see... I'm successfully raising four kids. I'm a veteran. I'm a business professional. I'm a black belt. I've been to several countries and lived in four different states. I've owned several homes. I've paid taxes longer than you been breathing and I put myself through school.

I'm not a glutton. I am a "contributor". Remember that term, it will come back to haunt you when you have to pay all those taxes that you so whole-heartedly embrace today.

What do you have to say for yourself? You can count all your pubes on one hand? You and I are not peers, not by a long shot. So don't address me like one of your little buddies. I not only "do not" give Americans a bad name, I'm one of those Americans who make sure even misguided, naive little school girls can be Americans, too.

Do you really need to be wasting electricity on your PC and posting on this blog? How dare you, when we NEED an Earth to live on. (Picture Mr. Rogers now) Can you say sanctimonious, boys and girls?

Feel free to respond to my posts when you are mature enough to actually understand them.

Caledonication said...

"If you could design a perfect world Michael, what method would you use to detrimine Caledonication's needs and wants?"

This is what Michael wants...

"He wants me to make him feel good."

Sorry dude, I'm married.

Michael Gibson said...

I'm sorry, but nobody needs "...my three flat screen tvs, my cars, my boat...going out to eat, and everything (and anything) else I buy" Why carS? Explain to me why one person would really need more than one. One for yourself, one for the wife, one for the kids. I'm sorry, I understand that you want to enjoy your life and all, but you honestly sound very self-centered. I'm not promoting living in the stone ages, but I think that a lot of people, especially people like yourself, from the way it sounds, could cut back a little bit. I promise, two televisions is enough.

I am sick of a lot of the people on this board having this notion that all young people should respect their elders. I will respect you if you deserve it in my my eyes.

The end of the world is probably not a feasible result of our current situation. More feasible is the end of life as we know it. I don't think it is too hard to come to terms with the fact that an increasing change in temperature leads to, among other things, many health problems. As temperature increases, new species of plants and animals will move into new areas, which will obviously come with new diseases. If you need me to, I'll make a nice laundry list of the consequences of global warming.

Caledonication said...

Blah, blah, blah, blah...

Michael Gibson said...

WOW!! I didn't know you could manufacture such an effective and compelling counter-argument.

Caledonication said...

Blah, blah, blah, blah...

Denis Navratil said...

OK, so you didn't answer my question directly, but I get the gist of it Michael. If you could have your way, you, Michael Gibson would decide what Caledonication may or may not purchase with his own money. And of course you will also know exactly what to do with that excess money that he does not really need. You are demonstrating a well developed elitism Michael. I hope you can see why your attitude would be disgusting to someone who has earned his money, protected you and your country and paid for your education. You are heeping scorn on the very people whom you should be thanking.

Caledonication said...

Denis, just shut up and fork it over...

Anonymous said...

Caledonication, can you say: "Making up personal insults because you have no better argument?" If this does not prove that you are the kind of person who gives americans a bad name, then I don't know what will. Michael is much more mature than you, he does not respond with childish tantrums and he actually adresses questions

Anonymous said...

Fred and Denis...

My God, a right wing discussion group!

Michael Gibson said...

I never said anything about how I would do things if I had everything my way. I simply made the suggestion that maybe, just maybe, curbing your consumption a little bit could help the environmental crisis. It might actually help mental health too. Rather than watching TV (which you seem to enjoy, as you were boasting about buying three), spend a little extra time with your friends and family.

Caledonication said...

"Caledonication, can you say: "Making up personal insults because you have no better argument?" If this does not prove that you are the kind of person who gives americans a bad name, then I don't know what will. Michael is much more mature than you, he does not respond with childish tantrums and he actually adresses questions"

You are right anon, you don't know what will, because you (especially) are incapable of understanding something so simple. Ironically, you are the queen of personal insults. I don't have to make up personal insults due to not having any other argument. There was no argument. He didn’t say anything. He clumsily sidesteps all debate. Funny, how Michael calls me self-centered, when in fact, he has been the second most self-centered poster on this blog (second only to you, of course). My response to Michael was completely appropriate as a response to him. There is no argument or debate with Michael. When he is not contradicting himself, he is merely repeating the same rubbish over and over and over; intellectually identical to my typing "blah, blah, blah, blah". Since Michael doesn’t understand (and apparently neither do you) the sarcastic satire which takes place on this blog, I would say that indicates immaturity on both of your part. You see the common theme here? It doesn’t matter to either of you what the truth is, as long as you get to define it; another indication of immaturity. As far as tantrums go, I am neither fearful nor angry, so why would anything I say, suggest a tantrum. Meanwhile, your relentless, superior contributions consist of comments like:

“Fred and Denis... My God, a right wing discussion group!”

And

“Just how much more right wing ideological could this blog ever get? I think that you trot out every right wing ideological stereotype and belief that exists...Ronald reagan would be proud of you...along with his astrologer.”

Clearly, you are the little tantrum thrower. Typical lefty, always taking, never contributing. You are not helping Michael, you are holding on to him for dear life because you are the fearful one. Let us help him grow up, by demonstrating the absurdity of his liberal thinking.

Caledonication said...

"I never said anything about how I would do things if I had everything my way. I simply made the suggestion that maybe, just maybe, curbing your consumption a little bit could help the environmental crisis. It might actually help mental health too. Rather than watching TV (which you seem to enjoy, as you were boasting about buying three), spend a little extra time with your friends and family."

See Michael? Once again you are responding without having read... wait... you did read Denis' post!

(epiphany)

I see now... Your problem isn't that you don't read before you post. Your problem is you don't understand what you are reading!

Oh, and by the way, regarding your comment, which I included above. You don't know anything about what I do at home, at work, with my family and/or with my friends. Lets try and use some dialogue that perhaps you can understand.

Get a pair and STFU...

Michael Gibson said...

I nominate Cal for hypocrite of the month award! You don''t insult me? Right. Let's Count the ways:
1)"You can count all your pubes on one hand?"
2)"...make sure even misguided, naive little school girls can be Americans, too"
3)"Feel free to respond to my posts when you are mature enough to actually understand them"
4)"Sorry dude, I'm married"
5)"He didn’t say anything. He clumsily sidesteps all debate. Funny, how Michael calls me self-centered, when in fact, he has been the second most self-centered poster on this blog"
6)"When he is not contradicting himself, he is merely repeating the same rubbish over and over and over; intellectually identical to my typing "blah, blah, blah, blah". Since Michael doesn’t understand (and apparently neither do you) the sarcastic satire which takes place on this blog"
7)"Let us help him grow up, by demonstrating the absurdity of his liberal thinking."
8)"Your problem is you don't understand what you are reading!"
9)"Get a pair and STFU..."

Wow. Nine insults in the last two days on one forum alone. You are certainly the most mature person I know.

I'm sorry that I don't answer your questions the way you want to hear them answered. I'm sure you wouldn't criticize my tactics if I were on your side.

Caledonication said...

Mikey..
Mikey..
MIKEY!!!

Here's what I said "VERBATIM":

"I don't have to make up personal insults due to not having any other argument."

I never said that I didn't insult you. I said, I did not have to insult you due to the fact that I didn't have an argument. By pointing out that anonymous insulted people, I was responding to the hypocritical post made by anonymous.

5, 6, 7 and 8 are not insults, they are observations. 2 was not directed at you personally, but hey if the shoe fits... The others were for my personal amusement and if they hurt your feelings, well...

Get a pair and STFU... (does that count as 9 or 10?)

Michael Gibson said...

The why did you resort to insults? If your argument is so credible, why won't you just stick to debating your side?

This is getting annoying. I'll read your responses, but I'm not commenting unless you have something intelligent to say.

Caledonication said...

Isn't it past your bedtime Mike? C'mon little guy, up and at 'em. You need to get a good nights sleep, so you can amuse me some more tomorrow.

Caledonication said...

Check this out! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nIlFsERnmk

Caledonication said...

Then go to bed.

Michael Gibson said...

Wow. Weird Al sucks.

Caledonication said...

Yeah, but it was the lyrics that really make the point.

Caledonication said...

Put down that chainsaw and listen to me
It's time for us to join in the fight
It's time to let your babies grow up to be cowboys
It's time to let the bedbugs bite

You better put all your eggs in one basket
You better count your chickens before they hatch
You better sell some wine before it's time
You better find yourself an itch to scratch

You better squeeze all the Charmin you can while Mr. Wipple's not around
Stick your head in the microwave and get yourself a tan

Talk with your mouth full
Bite the hand that feeds you
Bite off more than you can chew
What can you do
Dare to be stupid

Take some wooden nickles
Look for Mr. Goodbar
Get your mojo working now
I'll show you how
You can dare to be stupid

You can turn the other cheek
You can just give up the ship
You can eat a bunch of sushi then forget to leave a tip

Dare to be stupid
Come on and dare to be stupid
It's so easy to do
Dare to be stupid
We're all waiting for you
Let's go

It's time to make a mountain out of a molehill
So can I have a volunteer
There's no more time for crying over spilled milk
Now it's time for crying in your beer

Settle down, raise a family, join the PTA
Buy some sensible shoes and a Chevrolet
And party 'till you're broke and they drive you away
It's OK, you can dare to be stupid

It's like spitting on a fish
It's like barking up a tree
It's like I said you gotta buy one if you wanna get one free

Dare to be stupid (yes)
Why don't you dare to be stupid
It's so easy to do
Dare to be stupid
We're all waiting for you
Dare to be stupid

Burn your candle at both ends
Look a gift horse in the mouth
Mashed potatos can be your friends

You can be a coffee achiever
You can sit around the house and watch Leave It To Beaver
The future's up to you
So what you gonna do

Dare to be stupid
Dare to be stupid
What did I say
Dare to be stupid
Tell me, what did I say
Dare to be stupid
It's alright
Dare to be stupid
We can be stupid all night
Dare to be stupid
Come on, join the crowd
Dare to be stupid
Shout it out loud
Dare to be stupid
I can't hear you
Dare to be stupid
OK, I can hear you now
Dare to be stupid
Let's go, Dare to be stupid
Dare to be stupid
Dare to be stupid....
(fadeout)

Anonymous said...

Another delusion right wing post.

Nobody said that the 'Holy Grail' was your brand of laizze faire economics.

'Your' money is the mantra. Their is a lot of money stolen under the capitalistic system from the average Joe and Jane. But THAT is legal...and advanced by the 'right'.

Caledonication said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Caledonication said...

"Another delusion right wing post.

Nobody said that the 'Holy Grail' was your brand of laizze faire economics.

'Your' money is the mantra. Their is a lot of money stolen under the capitalistic system from the average Joe and Jane. But THAT is legal...and advanced by the 'right'."

Another delusional, anonymous left wing post.

Nobody said that the 'Holy Grail' was your brand of extortion.

'Everybody's' money is the mantra. There is a lot of money stolen under the socialist taxation system from the average Joe and Jane. But THAT is legal...and advanced by the 'left'.

Michael Gibson said...

Can you say "corporate welfare"?

Anonymous said...

Socialist for the wealthy...