Thursday, January 15, 2009

Stimulating Voters/Harming the Country

Receiving money is stimulating, no doubt. Conversely, giving it up, or paying taxes, is destimulating. So when governments hand out cash or advantages that will result in cash, some people are being stimulated while others, namely those who are paying more in taxes than they are receiving in cash, are being destimulated.

The Obama administration will no doubt seek to stimulate those who voted for him and hope that the rest don't notice how much they have been destimulated. The problem for the entire country is that too much stimulus given to less productive people or entities (public education, unionized auto manufacturers, cost inneffective green businesses etc...)and too much destimulation of the productive will cause great harm to the economy which will in turn destimulate, or depress, productive and unproductive alike.

But it worked politically for FDR and I suspect it will work politically for BO, even as it damages the country.

17 comments:

Mixter said...

Are you saying the New Deal damaged this country? It SAVED this country! The country, not just its economy, needed to be saved, and FDR and the New Deal saved it.

What we need RIGHT NOW is to keep things from getting worse while alleviating people's suffering and holding the country together. Is what Obama plans to do going to do that? I don't know. I sure hope so. Something's gotta happen, that's for damn sure.

But, if you're implying that the New Deal damaged this country, you are sorely mistaken. Hoover treated the Depression as an economic problem, not as a problem with the country and how it was run, and in the way business-friendly politicians like to treat economic problems he told the people that the problem would fix itself, people just needed to be patient, tighten their belts, yada, yada, yada. So people began to doubt the government (kinda like now?), business and capitalism. What FDR offered was this: If people would put their faith back in the government and work with it, the government would put its faith in them and work with them to solve the problems.

Now, like back in those days, the people need to be willing to work harder at governing themselves, and the government cannot just sit idly by and let the nation bleed.

Do I profess to know what the answer to our current economic crisis is? Nope. But I certainly hope you're not trying to rewrite history by saying the New Deal damaged this country.

Mixter

Nemo said...

Mixter, a growing number of economists agree that FDR's programs prolonged the depression by 7 years or more. See the book "FDR's Folly: How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression"

Taking money from grandchildren to pay people in Ohio to dig holes in Wisconsin and then paying people in Wisconsin to fill them back up does not create wealth. No matter how fast you dig or fill, GDP is not changed.

Anonymous said...

Mixter - had we done nothing YES, the recioevry would have been sooner. You do understand how the Federal Reserve and Treasury work, right? A dollar bill is simply debt that needs to be paid back in taxes to the Treasury so more Tbils can be issued to the Fed so they will issue more dollars, etc. You understand that, right? Then explain how issuing more debt is going to bail us out - whether it was FDR or Obamessiah?

Mixter said...

Nemo, I assert that it wasn't only the economy that was broken, but the country and its government. Doing nothing would have been a catastrophe.

Anonymous, are you always a condescending asshole, or just to people you don't agree with? Nemo is classy enough to speak intelligently and politely. Your tone is not appreciated, you're speaking to someone who was NOT disrespectful to the poster, and I hardly think that Obama is the Messiah that the liberals made him out to be, so kiss my ass. And I mean that in the nicest way possible. :)

Mixter

Mixter said...

Oh yeah... one more thing, Anonymous, did I SAY that I wanted "Obamessiah" to issue more debt? You can probably can read okay, but your comprehension and retention needs some work.

Mixter

Anonymous said...

Mixter - I am sorry because that was pretty low-rent tone on my part.

Mixter said...

I accept your apology, Anonymous. Thank you. I take back the KMA. :) I do understand your point of view; however, I don't agree that the New Deal damaged this country. That was my beef with this post.

I do not profess to know the answer to this current crisis. I hope our soon-to-be Prez will act swiftly and intelligently, with the help of the Congress, business, and the American people, to help us out of this mess.

Mixter

Denis Navratil said...

Mixter, thanks for joining the conversation. Obviously we are not going to get to the bottom of the issue of FDR's effectiveness, but I wonder if you have read much if anything that might contradict your point of view. The thing about conservatives and anyone else for that matter is that they have had exposure to the liberal viewpoint as it so dominates in the fields of education, media, entertainment etc... whereas people have to go out of the way to be exposed to an alternative point of view. I guess venturing over here to FreeRacine suggests a willingness on your part to do so. I hope you will stay around and engage in some robust and respectful debate.

Anonymous said...

Yes Mixter, welcome to the forum. Sorry again for my horse's ass tone.

As for all the stimulus being talked about, all I can say is that I hope I at least get the happy ending . . .

Mixter said...

Thanks for the welcome.

Here's the thing: Unlike most people, I have the capability to look at things from many points of view and then use critical thinking skills to make up my own mind. For example, I don't take what either MSNBC (liberal) or FOX News (conservative) says about anything at face value. I can consider what they say, and if I'm interested enough in the topic, do some research on my own to come up with what I think is the proper stance on the subject. And, if I don't feel I know enough about a topic to give my opinion on it, I don't.

I don't know many conservatives OR liberals who have this capability. I am not including present company, as I don't know any of you well enough at this point to make such a judgment call.

I used to consider myself a liberal, but I don't think that describes me accurately, so I'm officially putting myself in the boring "moderate" category.

Mixter

Nemo said...

You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.

~ Adrian Rogers, 1931 - 2005

Anonymous said...

Yes Nemo but the government has folks like us at a disadvantage. We will not wait to see what happens and will continue to try to provide for ourselves and our families (and charities if we can). There will always be people working, although fewer, from whom the government can skim. But like the hoods who used to run Vegas, they get a cut even if no money is made - how you pay up is your problem because your house and car don't have to stay being yours.

Mixter said...

Nemo, the assumption that half of the people in this country wouldn't work if they didn't have to is ridiculous.

And, as a person who has worked since she was 16 years old -- taking a whole six weeks off after the birth of my child -- and now finding myself, at the age of 44, unemployed, uninsured and about to lose the beautiful home where I have lived for the past 5-1/2 years, I find Adrian Rogers' statement personally offensive. What, people who scrape by with the little they receive from government funding because they're unemployed, under-employed, or unemployable (either because they're lazy assholes or because they have no skills, training, are physically unable, or whatever) are living the good life? Pardon my French, but fuck Adrian Rogers.

Mixter

Anonymous said...

Mixter - I find you personal situation to be horrible as any decent person should. Although you do not, there are those who - through lack of conscience - game the system through becoming baby machines, etc. Not really an example of gaminmg the system, but I remember a guy being turned away from an AIDS hospice in Iowa because there were people in front of him who ONLY had AIDS - if he had AIDS and was a heroin addict he would have been moved up the waiting list significantly.

What is your training and desired line of work?

Mixter said...

Anon, there are always going to be people who try to take advantage. I just don't agree that the collective work ethic in this country is so poor that half of the people would not want to work. I'm SO fortunate that I'm receiving unemployment benefits, otherwise I'd be completely screwed. I'm holding off on applying for food stamps and other types of assistance, although I probably should, just because I have hope that I will land something soon and because I haven't lost that last bit of pride just yet.

Regarding work: I am an experienced quality manager -- specializing in medical device and/or OTC pharmaceutical manufacturing, but could work other types of manufacturing companies. Not a lot of openings, and a lot of competition, in this specialized field. However, I have plenty of administrative experience as well, and I am willing to take a freaking huge cut in pay just to get a job! I'm currently under consideration for a job that pays $17,000/yr less than I made at my last job, and I'd take it in a heartbeat. Companies don't really like to hire people who are overqualified, though, because they're afraid (and rightfully so) that they will put forward the time and resources to train you and once you find something more suitable you'll leave. Yep, I'm an educated, experience professional living on the dole and begging for a crappy-paying job. It's more than a little humiliating.

Another issue, for me, is that my ex-husband has not been helping me pay the mortgage on our house, the bills to upkeep the house, and for shared bills -- although it is in our divorce agreement that he do so. I have filed against him in court, so maybe I'll see some of the money I've spent some day, but I can't afford to pay the mortgage on my own. So, about four hours after I left that comment, I received a lovely summons informing me that the mortgage company is foreclosing.

Poor me... Got your tissues handy? :)

It's tough all over, and we have to do something to help people out. My next-door neighbor got laid off right after Christmas. He's got a mortgage to pay and a family to support. He's no slacker. We've put in our work, and right now the government has to help us out. Thank goodness that help is available.

Mixter

Anonymous said...

"specializing in medical device and/or OTC pharmaceutical manufacturing, but could work other types of manufacturing companies."

Mixter - I can't begin to tell you what a coincidence this is. I started a project you may be very interested in. Can you meet me at Denis' store sometime today?

Mixter said...

Wish I would have seen this sooner. My e-mail addy is mixter_64 [AT] yahoo [DOT] com. Thanks! :)

Mixter